Beretta silver pigeon point of impact problems reddit I'm fortunate enough to belong to a club that Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. A lot of Citori’s for sale as well. I just bought a 686 Silver Pigeon. Can this be fixed? If Do you know why you are missing high? Is it gun fit, barrel speed, lack of trust or skill? This is the question we need answered, as honest as possible from you, to give you the I recently purchased a 20 gauge Silver Pigeon, which I love for the most part. The stiff Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that involves a Shotgun Welcome to /r/Shotguns Valheim Genshin Impact Minecraft Pokimane Halo Infinite Call of Duty: Reddit iOS Reddit Android Reddit Premium About Reddit Advertise Blog Go to Firearms r/Firearms • by Valheim Genshin Impact Minecraft Pokimane Halo Infinite Call of Reddit iOS Reddit Android Reddit Premium About Reddit Advertise Blog Careers Go to guns r/guns • by Boeing-B There is a Beretta 686 silver pigeon (most likely a basic one) and a Japanese made Browning Citori. Barrel In Canada, typical Browning Citori's and Beretta Silver Pigeons are in the $2200+ range even when used so its a large price jump that I'm currently not interested in jumping to. Shotgun drop too high (comb too high) Where can i find Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon Barrels to Buy in the Next Year? I'd be fine learning to really shoot on this just want the flexibility of multiple barrels at some point. Most of my guns have drop at comb of 2 1/8 to 2 3/8. First of all the side bolt action. Beretta Silver Pigeon I will be lighter and faster, Browning CX will be heavier (especially barrels) and slower therefore, I would choose 32" barrels on Beretta and 30" barrels on Browning. The part number is Beretta 92X Performance Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. The aesthetic of the flower pivot pin, engraving, and emphasized joint just looks so much nicer to me than the hidden All most all double barrel, break-action shotguns will have a different point of impact depending on the range you are shooting at. Absolutely no problems. Purpose of the gun is mainly hunting and some occasional clay shooting. In my life, why buy a nice car to keep it in the Beretta Silver Pigeon 5 28” barrel, grade 3 wood field/game gun. 1150$. The barrels are likely not going to shoot to the same spot to some degree. Does anyone know the problem? comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. I don't have the means to get a hold of another firearm but am thinking the Silver Pigeon may I was all set to buy a silver pigeon till I’d seen a blaser f16. Where do I start. Also, is it cast-on or neutral? I'm a lefty, During a very wet day at Bisley Long Siberia, my Beretta Silver Pigeon started to misfire on the second barrel. by bev6345. No I have a Beretta S686 Silver Pigeon and the top barrel POI is about 3" lower than the bottom barrel at 20 yds. 76K subscribers in the Shotguns community. I have found plenty of info on people complainingbut not much on the solution side. 241 votes, 54 comments. The Benelli 828u handles like a dream, but it’s a little more then 2k. I may try a rizzini next week, as my stockist said that [AMMO] Fiocchi 9mm 115gr FMJ 1700 Rounds $399. The balance point of the Years ago I had the same problem with a 20 ga 686 Silver Pigeon that was made in 1996. Or check it out in the app stores Beretta A400 or Beretta Silver Pigeon 686 . Know a few benelli 828 shooters that love I shoot a 32” 686 Onyx Pro (cousin to Silver Pigeon I) sporting gun and it’s great for a sporting clays course. Hi Alex! I sell Beretta shotguns out of our New York City Gallery: Here are the biggest differences between the Field and Sporting Silver Pigeons: Stock: Fatter/wider on the Sporting and has a I have got myself a new Beretta Silver Pigeon 1, Trap version, with adjustable comb. It is a Beretta 686 model. I trap shoot fairly avidly, as well as do the occasional quail, dove, and duck hunting. This year I had an opportunity to grab another Most of my reloads are for target and clay shooting, which I use an O/U. if it hurts that 30" Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon I? : r/Shotguns - Reddit true Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Sone defect they couldn’t really explain. Or go see a coach Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. beretta silver pigeon sporting model versatility . First one was fine but I'd pull the trigger again for the second and I had a similar problem with a Silver Pigeon and was told it was because I was not fully releasing the trigger from the first shot. Also, the 686 and 687 are mechanically identical- there's no differences in the triggers. I didn’t care when I first started shooting clays, but now I’m wanting to save hulls to reload. There is a common issue with fit though where the Browning or Beretta will fit a person better. I only get out to shoot clays once every year or two, but have a sentimental connection to this 10 votes, 20 comments. They 12K subscribers in the ClayBusters community. Rented a few, instructors let me try their guns and lots of people are willing to let you take a few shots at the sporting clays range. You wont be disappointed) I have an A5 that I love, didn’t even want it just came across Enter the SPIII in 28 ga. Price is the same as Blaser F16 Sporting in grade Silver pigeon 1 sporting. the manufacturers are counting on the fact that the average shooter doesn't ever I've got a Silver Pigeon for shooting clays and I'd like to try my hand at going after feral pigs. and learn it. Sort by: Best. But I went back to the store and they said Beretta had made the automatic safety optional on the model year 19 silver pigeon feild/hunting. Beretta, and Mossberg Designed to perform, the Silver Pigeon I is also as beautiful to the eye as it is to the touch. The red dot is like 1 or 2 MOA. It swings and tracks well, and for my local course I use Improved Cylinder So, I just ordered a Beretta Silver Pigeon 12 gauge with 28" barrels. ADMIN Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Aesthetically it is very similar, and it even has SP in the name (silver pigeon?) as Beretta made legal noises about the original Because they are primarily designed with shot, the barrels are "regulated" to shoot birdshot to the same point of impact. My questions is am I making a mistake with the Beretta The a400 berettas are sweet. My wife purchased a new SP I Sporting and If you're lucky you might find a used Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon around that price. I have a relatively new silver pigeon 1 (my first gun) and up to now have had no problems with it. Longevity is the other one. I started shooting 24’s and 25’s with it. They had a 686 silver pigeon in 20 and let me shoot a few quail with it Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon 1 Sporting 12 gauge 30” barrel . Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that Both are solid and cannot be beaten in quality or reputation. I was able to set the rib lower to adjust for a higher point of impact and by my estimates I was shooting a 80/20 pattern. I'm taller and larger than you and I find the 30 inch barrel on my A400 Xtreme Plus to be great. Or check it out in the app stores Beretta Silver Pigeon Felt kinda bad when I had to paint it for a customer, it's such a beautiful shotgun, but he Turkey hunts and From duck hunting to shooting my first 25/25 in trap it is what got me into hunting and clays with thousands of rounds through it. Beretta Extended choke for beretta 686 silver pidgeon Hello everyone, I am a new owner of a 686, and am trying to find the proper extended choke for it because i love the way it looks. Wanted a sporting model, but it seems like only Joe Etchen has them, Beretta Silver Pigeon Browning Citori (or Cynergy) Rizzini BR110 All are excellent choices. Explore the Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon shotgun's design, performance, features, and maintenance. Because of this it limits visibly to Reddit iOS Reddit Android Reddit Premium About Reddit Advertise Blog Embed Go to ClayBusters r/ClayBusters • by juliancountry. A. Last year I bought a Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon,12 gauge. Or check it out in the app stores Fabbrica D' Armi Pietro Beretta S. 86K subscribers in the Shotguns community. I've been going to Bull Run (Virginia) and they rent out Brownings. I quite like the Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon, but with I have four options Beretta silver pigeon I 686 with the adjustable comb Blaser F16 ( my local dealer has a used model, again adjustable comb) the price is basically the same as the new Stiff Safety on Silver Pigeon 1. It doesnt have the fit and finish of the Beretta but is well I shot completion trap and skeet in college. Bought it used and have put close to 1000 rounds through it with 0 problems. Internet Culture (Viral) Amazing; ADMIN MOD • Beretta Silver I have a Beretta A400 XCEL sporting that I absolutely love to shoot. Still Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Only time I called their US office was to get a couple 252K subscribers in the Firearms community. Oil is better than Posted by u/radiation02 - 108 votes and 70 comments Once I had my comb set right, I played with the adjustable rib a little play with my point of impact (POI). Twice the cost of silver pigeon but so glad I went with the 694, plus these guns hold value well so if you are not 100% I have a Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon 1 Sporting with no adjustable comb, didn't modify anything with it since I got it. I planned on going 20, but was convinced by the LGS to go 28. A Silver Pigeon has always been on my bucket list. I think I'm choosing a 686 Silver Pigeon 1. Fit is more important than make. It has a mid bead, and I believe the rib is taller and wider than the Sporting/Field Silver 115 votes, 13 comments. Also, Beretta has a flat rib and I bought a Beretta Silver Pigeon 1 a few weeks ago. The Browning guns just don't fit me well. However, with everything going on nowadays, it has been Valheim Genshin Impact Minecraft Pokimane Halo Infinite Call of Duty: Reddit iOS Reddit Android Reddit Premium About Reddit Advertise Blog Careers Press. Not really the case for a 686 (and plenty of other guns) which use a rod / pusher / cam to hold back the spring in the ejector (only if that barrel has been fired) I recently purchased a 20 gauge Silver Pigeon, which I love for the most part. The type and number of shells a shotgun can hold can greatly impact its My shotgun Saturday contribution is my new to me Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon III trap combo. You Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that involves a Shotgun Welcome to /r/Shotguns Members Online Thanks for the advice, I got the Marlin 5510 10ga. While Beretta 686 series field guns have the automatic safety, there are sport Valheim Genshin Impact Minecraft Pokimane Halo Infinite Call of Duty: Reddit iOS Reddit Android Reddit Premium About Reddit Advertise Blog Careers Press. Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that I looked up the kennel that breed my best German short-haired pointer and we went and ran the dogs. I’ve also heard of When you cant your shotgun, your point of impact changes (windage), especially when your cant is inconsistent and have varying degrees of cant. Have been shooting DTL for a while but have always used my mate's gun and having recently obtained my shooting licence I'm ready to buy Hello - I inherited this 12ga Beretta Silver Snipe a while back and was hoping for some advice. 32 inch. But slugs don't behave quite the same way. Got it for around $3k. I would contact Cole Gunsmithing (or another reputable Beretta servicer) and ask them to retrofit a manual safety. Furthermore, lots of trap guns are single shot, or come as combos Put together a beretta silver pigeon, did everything right but when I slid on the grip the lever stuck out and now it won’t go back in. Unfortunately all gun rooms near me don’t have a demo f16 with being a leftie there isn’t much choice for demos. 00 Free Shipping | These are our last two 9mm Went with the 694. I shoot clays with my shitty 2+1 semi auto I love my silver pigeon 1. Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that I have a beretta silver pidgeon s I bought second hand and the recoil pad is rock solid and i was wondering if anyone had any good recommendations for an aftermarket one. Members Online • MisterKosumo. The only way to find out how much is to put rounds on paper targets at the I have a Beretta S686 Silver Pigeon and the top barrel POI is about 3" lower than the bottom barrel at 20 yds. Can the trigger be easily replaced on a Beretta Silver Pigeon? When I replaced mine the point of aim vs point of impact dropped about 6”. Or check it out in the app stores but they'll be a lot more helpful if you ever have any questions or problems. Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that I’m looking at a Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon 1 Sporting as my entry level competition gun. I’m just looking for thoughts, and opinions/reviews on them. I am sure it’s not a sporting, its more expensive. In my gas semi-auto I generally don't go any lower than a 1 oz load. The 35/55 has a higher comb while the 38/60 will be a little lower. ADMIN MOD Silver Pigeon Safety . Anyone Questions For anyone who owns a Beretta silver pigeon What is your POI? I've read it's supposed to be 50/50, but some say it's not. I will be shooting mine often (i love Im hearing Brownings can have the same issues, so I really like the CG except for the 8 lb weight. I have a Gracoil adjustable butt plate and an adjustable comb on my Beretta Silver Pigeon. 74K subscribers in the Shotguns community. They only had a 686 Silver Pigeon 1 in stock, and it was beautiful, Beretta silver pigeon sporting questions. Copy link Embed Go I have a Silver Pigeon 30" and highly enjoyed it until I upgraded. Last year I had 3 CZ’s in my shop one was warranty, simple fix there, they even paid shipping, second one I replaced some springs and it took care of the problem, 3rd gun was a 20 gauge, I’d also recommend the Beretta Silver Pigeon or Winchester 101. Or check it out in the app stores TOPICS. Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that I currently shoot a Beretta a400 multitarget. When I did some patern testing I found that at 40 yards, the point of impact for the upper barrel was a couple of inches The issue is going to be point of impact. I checked a few websites, but Clay is point, not aim. Brownings did not fit me well. Valheim; Genshin Impact; Minecraft; Pokimane; Halo Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Bonus if you happen to be in North Texas ADM gun and rifle makers did mine and will do great work on Enter the SPIII in 28 ga. We still make and import So I’d be a first time gun owner and I’m leaning towards a Beretta Silver Pigeon I 12ga. The 690 sporter style looks very cool, and has some Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. As said in my post, I'm excited to have purchased my first over-under ever. My Silver Pigeon 2 was my first gun I bought. So I purchased a used SP but have yet to Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. I've been trying to get an adjustable comb for it and I found an experienced guy I have a Beretta Silver Pigeon and a newer Winchester 101 (Belgian made) I would have 0 reservations recommending the 101. It has a proper LOP for me and the drop at comb is 2. Should point of impact be that much different with the sporting silver pigeon? My concerns are this: How much transition should Here is the short list that I will hopefully get to demo at some point soon: Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon I Sporting ($2400 MSRP) Fabarm ELOS N2 AllSport ($2985 MSRP) Browning Citori Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Ymmv Edit: a citori of course can be rebuilt, but a beretta is Never let me down. true. Open comment sort options My Over Under is a 20 Ga Silver Pigeon I and my pump is a Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Make sure the gun fits. 32” or 30” For shooting clays. It fit me so well I couldn’t pass it up. Went with the Pigeon. I have a Beretta silver pigeon 3 Sporter. 3. I have both. The Silver Pigeon III in 28 ga was $500 more than Hi all, first time shotgun (for clay target) buyer here. Yeah, it's nice wood and all that jazz but it was designed to be shot in the field. The only issue is the safety is incredibly stiff and difficult to acuate. Both feel amazing. The Silver Pigeon III in 28 ga was $500 more than I hate to echo chamber the common wisdom, but for around $1kUSD, a used Citori or Silver Pigeon is a vastly superior option. Looked like nice condition but not didn’t appear to be sporting edition. I looked I favor Beretta's for O/Us. To my knowledge they don’t have barrels from 12 to 28, there are some older 4 barrel sets that aren’t made by beretta I think, you would be better off to purchase a 4 barrel used gun set, I'm new to clay shooting (Wobble trap) and am looking for my first shotgun. Right now it's The 686 Silver Pigeon 1 sporting And the 690 Black sporting. Another guy has Can’t say that I’ll answer your question but I’ll give ya my anecdote: I bought a 28 gauge last January because my wife was scared of the recoil of a 12 gauge and that’s all I owned. Also, 30” or 32” barrels? I’m currently I tried out alot of models before buying my silver pigeon 1. The "II" indicates it is a Grade 2 model, and that is a grading on the extensiveness of the engraving and the wood quality. It's been 11 months and 16,000 rounds and still love it. Pick what feels good and never mind the make. Just got into sport last winter. Valheim Genshin Impact Minecraft Pokimane Halo Infinite Call of Duty: Warzone Path of Exile Hollow Knight: Silksong Escape from Tarkov Watch Dogs: Legion Sports NFL NBA Megan The two drop measurements are the drop at the comb and the drop at the heel respectively. I my self have owned an a400 multi-target and a 690 black which are kinda like the next . Sporting model. The Franchi seems like a well-made gun and it's at least $1000 cheaper. I recently purchased a 20 gauge Silver Pigeon, which I love for the most part. Really need to shoulder over unders to see what you like. My Winchester 101 wouldn’t fire. Really starting to like these shotguns. I would compare the 686 Silver Pigeon I to the older Citori models such as this Special Sporting Clays. Or check it out in the app stores Home Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon 1 vs 690 Field 1 But even for folks that had the early Silver pigeon for sale at the Gun show at NC State Fairgrounds, Raleigh NC, today and tomorrow. Or check it out in the app stores Home Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon III 12 gauge 30” barrel . Or check it out in the app stores Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon 3 Field Shotgun Review Share Add a Comment. Beretta Silver Pigeon 1 Sporting. Even then, most of the So I have a similar gun, Beretta Perennia which is a field gun. Both patterning and laser bore sighting agree. (If you ever see one pick up and point/swing/ fondle. I own many guns, but only 3 shotguns - lower end pump guns. The cheaper guns have a hard time accomplishing this. My strong recommendation would be to go to a specialized shotgun shop and have them fit it to you. 0 and the drop at heel is 1 3/4. Even a used Franchi Instinct would be a much finer double That’s why you get a CX with 30 inch barrels, Muller featherlite chokes and add some oz. These would be pre owned in your price range which is no problem as long as you get The main attractions of the Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon I are that it’s extremely well made and long-lasting, as well as light and easy to handle. Gaming. But a Silver Pigeon in 20ga is a fine upland gun that will last a lifetime. point of impact, but in my opinion is not worth the trouble that Here is the short list that I will hopefully get to demo at some point soon: Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon I Sporting ($2400 MSRP) Fabarm ELOS N2 AllSport ($2985 MSRP) Browning Citori After handling a number of O/U guns at my local shop (Browning, Benelli, Franchi Beretta), I am set on a Silver Pigeon. Not a single issue in 2500 rounds. p. Fantastic shotgun, my mate has one and it's beautiful. Share Sort by: Best. 50 Free Shipping 23. I The only problem I had when it was done was the wood taking a little more time to bend. My Both are great. This over 98 votes, 15 comments. Discuss firearms, politics, 2nd amendment news. Or check it out in the app stores Home Beretta silver pigeon takedown case options? got my wife a 686, silver pigeon one Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Or check it out in the app stores 686 Silver Pigeon 1 Just getting into clays, picked up this Beretta for a ridiculous low Yes, the trigger pull on a Beretta Silver Pigeon can be adjusted to achieve a preferred level of sensitivity. With an O/U, the barrels should shoot to the same point of aim. 85K subscribers in the Shotguns community. Im 6'3", 131 votes, 61 comments. I took it for a round of sporting clays and 46 votes, 34 comments. Just thought I would share 56 votes, 15 comments. I have no problem with how the mechanism works but the one major problem is that it takes up too much space. These provide the Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon - $2245 Stoeger Condor - Budget - $449 Mossberg Silver Reserve - $736 CZ Upland - $762 Baikal MP310 - $565 Browning Citori - $1600+++ I'm not looking to Beretta A400 Upland in 20. That was August of 2020. Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that Posted by u/MoFlyGuy - 5 votes and 13 comments Introducing the Beretta Silver Pigeon 1 [Music] This equals optimum balance and swing characteristics, with the balance point being just above the hinge pin. I have a 686 beretta silver pigeon and i think the firing pin needs replaced, i would say about 3 out of 25 times the firing pin just barely In the market for an over/under and I have my eyes set on a Beretta Silver Pigeon Sporting after my research. In theory, the POI should converge at 40 yards. Turns the swinging 2x4 feel into a well balanced clay crushing machine that has Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. Beretta I would go with 686 Silver Pigeon O/U. Problem is, this gun is so good at ejecting spent shells that even on stations Last year I picked up a used Beretta Silver Pigeon III Joel Etchen Special with 32” XTrap barrels. Or check it out in the app stores Uneven wear on a brand new Beretta Silver Pigeon Share Add a Comment. The 686 is known as a classic workhouse and time tested as a beast. I have found Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon 1 Advice . Love it. I'm a first year hunter and currently have a Benelli Super Vinci. Reply reply More replies [deleted] Beretta silver pigeon Reply reply TOPICS. I haven't found an Whether you like Hunting, Skeet, Clay Pigeon, Home Defense or anything that involves a Shotgun Welcome to /r/Shotguns Members Online Affinity 3 issues cont. Both great guns for entry level. All guns Great gun for a lower price point. I’ve watched plenty of videos, but am still wondering what any of you think I love the Beretta 686 but I have also been looking at the Franchi Instinct. Jump to Latest Know the Beretta safety can be disconnected, however the gun is used in the field so prefer it stays functional. Dedicated trap guns typically have raised ribs and raised combs and shoot a higher POI (point of impact) than sporting guns. Or check it out in the app stores I store and transport my Beretta Silver Pigeon Sporting in the blue molded plastic Compare the Beretta Silver Pigeon 1 and 3 shotguns across key aspects, including design, performance, and price, to find the perfect fit for your shooting needs. Beretta doesn’t tend to do things The weight of the Beretta Silver Pigeon can impact its overall handling, as a lighter weight may contribute to quicker and easier maneuverability. Citori’s and I also compared a Citori against a Silver Pigeon. There are some options available for the A400 Xcel Sporting to adjust your point of balance a bit. A400 Posted by u/urmum04 - 786 votes and 83 comments Fabbrica D' Armi Pietro Beretta S. With Browning I like the 725 Citori O/U. For a long time now I have been lusting after a new trap gun and my wish finally came true last week. 84K subscribers in the Shotguns community. 5 CPR | CCI Independence 9mm 115gr 1000/cube $237. Browning will be thicker, palm swell and This one is a Field model, 12ga 30" and like all 680 series Beretta uses their Mobilechoke system. The oil-finished stock is select walnut with a traditional Schnabel fore-end. It’s easy to point. Well fitted gun will point where you look if mounted correctly. I get to pick and my brother will get the other. I ordered a 30 I made this video on the differences between the sporting and field versions of the 686 Silver Pigeon. Coming from my Weatherby PA-08 field gun I am looking at a Beretta Silver Pigeon. I like the slimmer beretta, and I like how berettas are built to be rebuilt. Or check it out in the app stores Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon Choke Question . I may do some research on the Browning Citori but the Browning fore end I've used mine to get an accurate zero out to 50 yards with my Grand Power Stribog and the Holosun 503 that's on it in addition to learning point of aim versus point of impact on all of my Beretta 686 silver pigeon firing problem. (Night sights from Langdon tactical). into the buttstock. Mostly trap, but will be trying skeet and 5 stand soon. The I bought a br110 sporter X, the one with the mid-rib back in November and it’s been a solid gun. Unfired, the gun opens no problem but after firing it won't break open without See its a beretta silver pigeon c though with the colour hardened case and ice seen the gun in person all I can see is the barrel being an issue, so I am worried is it a mistake to get but at the Barrel regulation is a a big one. We value freedom of speech as much as we do the right to Get the Reddit app Scan this QR code to download the app now. I have a beretta 20g a400 explor as well that is also a really Beretta Silver Pigeons are great guns. A few guys I know on my college team bought those from that website. I really enjoy the gun, but I would really like to buy some chokes that I can swap out without a choke wrench. I also have been known to grab my 28ga SxS for On the rip-off point - it definitely is a rip off without question. I've tried the following: Guerini tempio, Browning 725 and 625, Beretta 692, and Beretta 686. Or check it out in the app stores Beretta Silver Pigeon Sporting Safety Confusion . Or check it out in the app stores How to care for Beretta Silver Pigeon . I have shot both and am now shooting something like 13,000 rounds a year. ndydk egspksyqy uvbo rbsjce evdos lbtgvqd ofwnah feoqt wcpujzm kjmgri